Alt Investing Made Easy

Roland Wiederaenders (00:00.442)
Jay says that it's not the wealth that fails, it's the family. Welcome to Alt Investing Made Easy, where we explore the complex world of alternative assets. I'm Rowling, a securities attorney, investment advisor, and your co-host. And I'm Sarah, an investment advisor and corporate attorney and your other co-host.

We'll guide you through real estate, private equity and more, making complex topics accessible. Tune in for insights that empower your financial journey. Let's make Alt Investing easy, one episode at a time. Hello, everyone.

Sarah:
Welcome to Alt Investing Made Easy. Today, we're here with our attorney and friend, David Claflin. He's a specialist in qualitative estate planning and we will have the opportunity today to learn more about what that means.

So welcome David.

David:
Glad to be here and looking forward to our conversation Sarah.

Sarah:
Me too. Me too.

Roland:
Yeah I'm really excited to be here with David. We've become close personal friends over the last couple of years. We share an interest in meditation and consciousness and also you know he's been a great mentor just our practice areas overlap. You know, we work on these private deals that wealthy people invest in and David, you know, does estate planning for wealthy people. so there's a real overlap in the types of clients that we try to serve. But David's got a unique story and we should let him tell about it. The one thing I want to note before we get started is we try to give this disclaimer regularly, but our video podcast does not establish an attorney-client relationship, even though David, Sarah and I are all attorneys. Nothing that we say here can be relied on as legal or investment advice. We're talking about estate planning concepts here, but this is educational. If you do have more, you know, want more information or need to engage,
Roland Wiederaenders (02:16.534) an attorney, we for sure are available for that. But the primary purpose of this is educational and fun to get to know David a little better. So I'm going to be quiet and let Sarah proceed.

Sarah:
So David, I don't know you as well as Roland. And so this is an opportunity for us to get to know each other. And let's just start off with before we get into what it is that you do, it'd be nice to know who you are a little bit more about you and maybe how you came into the work that you do now.

David:
Okay, well, I came into working in the area of wealth transfer and estate planning really kind of late in life. I transitioned in my middle 50s, which was in the 90s and was able to become board certified in estate planning and probate law at that time. And maybe because of the late onset, I guess is the way to say it, of this portion of my career, when I came into it, some of the things just didn't quite make sense to me. Why people had trusts that were holding life insurance. And then the trustees never did what they were supposed to do by sending the correct letters. And no one seemed to know what these trusts were for or why they had been created in the first place. So that engendered in me an interest in why we're doing this. As I looked at not only what we're doing, but why? What is the purpose? What is ultimately sought to be achieved by these sophisticated partnerships, LLCs, trusts of all kinds of, know, 15 different names for trusts. But when all is said and done, Roland Wiederaenders (04:38.734) how is this affecting the people who are supposed to quote benefit close quote from these arrangements? So Sarah, that was sort of the impetus for me going forward in this and has proved to be an interesting approach to this aspect of estate planning.

Sarah:
Can I ask what did you do before?

David:
I was a general business litigation practice person here in Austin. I'd come here from Houston in the 70s and went through the real depression here in the late 80s and the early 90s and the shift in the economics of this area as it impacted, I think all of us who were attorneys here at that time. So my opportunity out of that challenge was to become a participant in this estate planning aspect of legal practice.

Sarah:
That's really interesting to me. And also just because we often ask this of our lawyer friends and colleagues, why did you become a lawyer? What's the origin story?

David:
Well, OK. Well, I'm old enough that the origin story is I went to law school to avoid the draft. There was a war in a country called Vietnam at that time, and I didn't particularly want to participate in it as a private.
Sarah:
Yeah, I understand.

David:
There was an option available. So law school created a deferral. After that, I was able to continue in a deferred capacity as a special agent with the FBI. Cool. Did that for a while and then wound up as a private practice in Houston and migrated here to Austin.

Sarah:
That's really interesting because my dad was also in Texas at that time and he became a conscientious objector. Roland Wiederaenders (07:03.27) He represented himself in court and was able to convince the judge that he needed to be granted that status.

David:
Yeah. Everyone who's my age, his life is affected by what happened to them in Vietnam or what they did to keep from being in Vietnam.

Sarah:
I think that, you know, that's I mean, just for my parents, they ended up that they had to do two years of service work and they did that in Algeria, of all places. And that affected them as they became expats and that affected our lives.

David:
You have carried that information on.

Sarah:
Yeah, basically. you're right. but anyway, well, that's I mean, actually, Roland, I don't know how much of this story you knew, but I find that really, really cool. I mean, it's not so often that you get to meet somebody who says they worked for the FBI. Could leave you feeling a little anxious, right?

David:
And as surrogate beyond that, I was at one time the president of the former FBI agents, the Society of Former Special Agents.

Sarah:
So you know all the guys.

David:
So I've had the full trip.

Sarah:
That sounds like it was really like an interesting way to participate in our society, actually, because, you know, today, politically, there's a lot of back and forth about these agencies that we have, but they have an important role. And so to meet somebody who would have actually experienced working in one is really cool, actually. You know, there's so much drama in Hollywood and everything about what FBI agents do or don't do and CIA agents and all that to, you know, imagine the real thing is quite different and also fundamentally important. So.

Roland:
Well, David, I've really enjoyed getting to know you and understanding better about estate planning. And I have to really have to confess that, you know, when I heard the term qualitative, you know, it fascinated me and my mind immediately went to its, you know, sort of its opposite quantitative and, and me being so, you know, I'm stronger. I'm the, the emotional side of me needs the most development. You know, I need most Roland Wiederaenders (09:15.15)
to grow in empathy and, you know, that's maybe common among attorneys. We tend to be really up in our heads, but the more in my heart I can get, the better attorney I am really, the better I relate to people. And so I really like this idea of qualitative versus quantitative because I always imagine just the estate planning being solely quantitative. It's just the numbers, how much tax can we save? But then really giving, being a good advocate means you know, doing that for sure, you know, and, and, making sure that we're not paying too much in taxes or anything in taxes if possible, but then really talking with the clients about the why behind their doing, doing things. And so that that's always been something that I've really enjoyed hearing from you about because there are lots of, of, you know, different approaches. I mean, when, when you describe qualitative estate planning, you already touched it on it, but, you know, that's what we want to really hear about. Even some, some without revealing confidences, any positive examples from your practice?

David:
Well, I think the first thing to sort of respond to positioning, we're using the term qualitative estate planning. I would refine that a little bit to say the qualitative aspects of estate planning. Okay, the overall domain involves both the quantitative and the qualitative. And when people hear this, there's sort of an initial response of it's either or, you know, we have one or the other. That's a great point. And I think the truth is that the qualitative aspects presume that the quantitative is handled. Okay, we can't really talk about why we're doing something, what the long range purpose of all of this is until the details of it are you know, solid. And so I come to this as a board certified specialist in estate planning and probate and I need to Roland Wiederaenders (11:39.566) enhance that rather than create an alternate to it. Okay. Am I clear about that?

Roland:
So, yeah, that's a really good point you know, the quantitative goes hand in hand with a qualitative and you can't have one without the other.

David:
So that's a good point. And I think probably you, well, I know you and Sarah and your practice, notice this as well. I suspect that there are some clients for whom why they are doing this business or putting together this opportunity is important beyond just making money with it. And so I would be surprised if you're not also seeing this in your domain.

Sarah:
You know, we kind of, what we kind of talk about here, David, is what we call this mission driven aspect of your wealth building journey, whether, you know, different people have different missions, but they're sort of something that could be to support your church or could be to do a lot of different things. But it seems to me that if you've been generating wealth from partially or wholly a mission driven point of view, then naturally when you come to the estate planning side of things, you're going to continue on with this qualitative aspect, which is also kind of to me the way, although I'm not sure if I'm right here is mission driven. Like what are you, what are you trying to do? Why did you make all this effort to make all this money apart from the need to survive, which we all have.

David:
Right.

Sarah:
But second to that, and you know, for our kids and all of that, but second to that is if you're able to then add this mission driven element, the way I kind of understand so far from hearing the word is that this is what gets built into this qualitative planning.

David:
Yeah, Sarah, I think we're on the same page. I say it's interesting, Sarah and I intentionally decided not to rehearse this. And my sense was that we're actually able to find common ground. Good. Back and forth and to have that Roland Wiederaenders (13:55.246) be revealed as we go forward here. My first response, Sarah, is that I'll bet you also notice that this interest in the mission project is not present for all the people you work for. 100 % for sure. There are people for whom making the money and going on to the next one is what they're up to. And I have no judgment about that. Okay, this is not preaching to you ought to be doing this or you ought to be, you know, all I want to do is have an option available for people who are, you know, put together or wired in such a way that is meaningful for them. Okay. It's not my imposing a predetermined judgment on my part onto them, but offering a response to what for many, many clients, and I think more than we're giving credit for, are very interested in. That makes sense. So being able to view people as they come before you and sort of sort out the ones that are interested in this from those who aren't has been one of the things that one of my, I guess, my trainings, it has been very important. And I'm happy to serve people who who think that the whose vision in life is accumulating wealth is what they're about. And that's the end of the show as far as they are concerned. That's fine. OK. And there are others for whom why we're doing this and what will be the impact on future generations, my grandchildren, great grandchildren, etc. And in this qualitative domain, sometimes we say we're looking at maybe seven generations. wow. OK. So, Sarah, you see, when you talk about mission driven and, you know, why, you know, some of the clients for whom you work and Roland Wiederaenders (16:20.75) why they're doing it for perhaps for the church or for some cause beyond making money initially, you can sort of supercharge that when you get over to my domain. But it's not just maybe a bigger purpose, but a bigger purpose that endures for hundreds of years.

Sarah:
That's amazing.

David:
There are so many of the trusts that are created, the lawyers just check the box and it creates a dynastic, even a revocable, standard estate planning, vanilla revocable trust. It can be, it's as easy to be, drafted so that it goes on multi-generationally and as it is to say it ends in the second generation. A lot of this is created and people think, well, wow, I've now got a trust that goes on indefinitely. That's a good deal and the lawyer charged me so much. I got a really good deal for that because this is going to last for maybe seven generations. Okay. Well, okay, but not much thought has gone into what will be the impact of isolating this financial wealth from normal back and forth of economics and what does this portend for people in the future? For people who are interested in this it becomes an added and very interesting exploration.

Sarah:
I'm very interested in this and I can think of an example of a situation I know about where if somebody seven generations ago had done some really good planning because that person made a huge amount of money for the time things would have been very different from the current generation. But instead there was a Roland Wiederaenders (18:47.798) you know, the first this person way back in the past made a ton of money and then it got squandered away. And and I don't know if you know, but living in the Middle East, there are a lot of family businesses, people who've made a lot of money and they call it the what is it? The failure of the third generation. So the first generation seems to make a ton of money through legitimate business efforts taking opportunities- such as the in the case of the United Arab Emirates. It's a developing country. So those were the first people to have the licenses to sell Mercedes and all these different kinds of things like that are basic commodities almost and then the next generation their children are raised in the family business and do well, but the grandkids are raised In a lot of wealth and affluence and no real business sense and so things can fail grandly in the third generation and this is such a problem in the United Emirates and the Gulf in general is that the governments are starting to try and introduce education programs for these family businesses that are imposed on them so they quit losing their money in the third generation, because of course the economy of the country needs those businesses to succeed right so it's a very interesting problem. I didn't know this was part of what we were going to discuss, but I find it so fascinating and so important for everyone involved. And when I used to advise clients who were in these second and third generation positions, it was very interesting to see how their personalities were different and how arrogance could be a problem because of having a lot of money, but not really having a work ethic. And it's just a very interesting thing to think about when you start to think forward into how to leave money to the future.

Sarah:
Wow. Well, I say, wow, Sarah, because the whole notion of the qualitative aspect of financial wealth transfer dates from probably in the United States, dates probably from the beginning of the 20th century and work. Roland Wiederaenders (20:57.954) by a man named James E. Hughes Jr. who's my sort of my mentor in this. And his early work, his initial book, Family Wealth, Keeping It in the Family was published in 2004 and is premised on shirt sleeves, what he calls shirt sleeves, the shirt sleeves in three generations. And he goes into detail about being called to China at one point with a very financially successful person there. And their conversation wound up being how to break the cycle. Yeah. The shirt sleeves to shirt sleeves in three generations and unprompted. OK, you have just restated Jay's basic premise, from the point of view of the Saudi and the Middle Eastern perspective. Jay has made the point over and over again that this myth exists in all cultures. So it's a rice paddy to rice paddy in China and clogs to clogs in the Netherlands. And in the United States, this wound up being shirt sleeves to shirt sleeves. This was the initial match sort of that lit the flame. That's really interesting. This whole domain that we're discussing has really not existed prior to about 2000 and has come on to the visibility, not only in law but in financial wealth management, many of the people, even large institutional investors are now organizing a section of their business to deal with long range family transition concerns. CPAs are interested in this Roland Wiederaenders (23:21.064). And in fact, there's a sort of a industry, industry, isn't quite the right word, but a domain of consultancy that is coming forth now to bring forward in families the practices and the ideas that will enable financial wealth to enhance life. Right. And so the notion of financial wealth being a part of overall well-being of human beings is the level at which we're now speaking. Right. And we're assuming that all of the details of the tax planning and the asset protection are in place. going forward, how do we keep out of the shirt sleeves to shirt sleeves situation and in fact enhance the well-being of individuals? Right. And if you can enhance the well-being of people, what is the effect that might have in our world? This is contagious. Sorry, Roland, go ahead.

Roland:
No, I was curious, maybe some specific examples of some people that you could think of, people you've represented that have done this well. That's where my mind was going and how can we prevent this from happening?

Well, one of the things that's come up over the last, well, during this roughly 20 year, 25 year history is, you know, there was a period when we looked at, ain't it awful, you know, all the shirt sleeves and then you look at it and say, well, no, there are some families that have really

Roland Wiederaenders (25:47.02)
gone against the current and have figured this out on their own and without necessarily doing this in an organized way or part of a, like I'm now referring to the qualitative aspects of wealth transfer, okay? They could see there was a problem and they addressed it and

There have been studies of the families that have done this and there are many have succeeded at this, though, as a percentage of the total that have had the chance, there may be a small percentage. Right. Like the people that you deal with in your work that are really interested in this may not be the majority. But in the same way,

the families that have successfully negotiated this shirt sleeves to shirt sleeves deal may not be, you know, the majority of families have had the opportunity, but they're enough to see that, hey, you know, you don't have to get sucked under with this stuff. OK, there is a way to go. And I just say and there are examples all over Roland of families that have done this.

The just take it the the the first premise is that we're going to have communication and relationship. Okay, that continuity presumes communication and relationship. And what one of the things Jay Hughes says is that the

Seriously, know, Sarah, the dynamic Sarah says that is being noticed in the places she's from. That dynamic doesn't have to necessarily occur. Okay. Jay says that is not the.

Roland Wiederaenders (28:12.744)
wealth that fails or the it's the family that fails. If you look at the situation where you had short sleeves to short sleeves and the three, know, and it's really crapped out in the third generation. What he says you find is that the relationships within the family have deteriorated and that that's really what went wrong. There is very little

evidence that this dynamic is caused by poor planning. This dynamic occurs in the face of many trusts, partnerships. That's not the issue. The issue is how the people affected by these structures are relating to one another and to the world outside.

And that's what we're, you know, that's what we're dealing with here. And it's much, you know, like, you know, you go to the doctor and you want him to give you a pill and he says, no, you need to change how you eat. Okay. Or you need to exercise. I can't put anything into you that'll fix this, you know, you need. And so, so the ability to shift gears. Okay. And

come out of the quantitative box that's so important and enter a domain that is totally unhinged in many ways from what we've been trained to do, we're licensed to do. And I can only say that for lawyers, our aspect of it, we have the saving grace that we have historically been called

attorney and counselor. And so if we're really able to take that admonition seriously, there's work to be done here and a real need for our participation, full-throated participation in this opportunity for the qualitative domain to become

Roland Wiederaenders (30:40.494)
more and more prevalent in our work. So, you know, I'll go on a little segue here and if it's a we can we can stop it if you want, but they're they're two very famous or popular shows right now about this qualitative issue. Aren't there Succession and then Yellowstone? I don't know if you watched either of those, but I hear of them. I. Well, and there are others too. think there's.

one, I shouldn't say the name on air, something about a creek. anyway, but it's all it seems like this is at the top of mind, maybe for us culturally or as a society, because the succession story is fairly horrific the way everybody treats each other. And they've got all the planning and all the trust and all this stuff. But really, they all treat each other with a lot of poor behavior. And it's making everybody mentally ill, basically. so and then in Yellowstone, they get along a little better. Not really sort of.

but they have sort of this big literal body of property, which is a ranch that they're trying to figure out how to deal with for the future. Right. And it's really quite interesting because I think, you know, these dramas are appealing to people because in some degree people either aspire to have those problems with having that much money or they have some version of those problems. it's, you know, it's a

It's good that people are thinking towards the future, but it's also just highlights, I think, exactly what you're saying, which is money is a kind of communication, right? Like if you have all this wealth, it's still a kind of communication. And if you're communicating in an unhealthy manner with yourself and with others around you and the people in your family that you share that money with, you're going to have problems. So moving on from that, though, I did have a question. Can you give us an example of how you address that? Like if if if there's.

We can assume that all the technical details are taken care of, of the planning and all of that. Do you have like a structure? mean, being a lawyer, you think about what structure do we put in place to solve this problem? So is it a contractual structure, a trust structure? What kind of structure can you put into place to promote good communication in the next generations? Well, the beginning is to intend it, to have this

Roland Wiederaenders (33:01.868)
be a primary purpose for your family and for your planning going forward. And the attempt to deal with it as you're suggesting, Sarah, gets us, that is, what are the procedures that we can, know, people have written, lawyers have written,

books with special provisions to put in trusts. that this, you know, we begin. Well, if a child is addicted to, you know, don't don't give him anything if you think he's going to spend it on drugs, you know, pages after page of how you tell whether he's addicted or, know, and you begin, you know, those efforts are destined to failure.

Okay, they're based on constricting and trying to maintain control. From the grave. From the grave. Okay. And we went through a time when that was thought to be the, well, when how the trust were written was thought to be the cure. need to use

I and you and he and she rather than grant or and grantee and you know, if we personalize the trust, then, you know, we'll have a better outcome when those you were talking about not just well, that doesn't substitute for communication. Okay. So in those cases, the communication has been between the lawyer and the and the person.

creating the estate plan. And, and you have situations for the person creating the estate plan. They're in tears at the signing because they've realized so much of what their values are and how important this is and how this gift, but there hasn't been a word said to the children or grandchildren. wow. Yeah. So

Roland Wiederaenders (35:21.87)
So until these ideas or these values are communicated and bought in to by the people who will be affected by them, you know, the outcome, I mean, it doesn't hurt to have, you know, thoughtfully drafted documents, but until those are become reflective of the norm.

rather than seeking to determine the norm. Okay, do you understand the difference? The rules that we've made reflect the culture rather than think that the rules we make are going to control the culture. I can think of another classic example, which again is a movie that I'm guessing you guys haven't watched, but it's a really good one. It's a mystery.

But there's this moment when it's a wealthy man and he's got a will and his children are all like hawks around him. Nobody knows exactly what the will says. And he dies and there's a young lady who's been helping him take care of him literally as a friend, not anything else. And he ended up changing his will to leave everything to her because his family is so awful. They're just all literally hovering over him to wait for him to die. And I think you see this.

this image or this theme in a lot of different movies and books and stories, know, this sort of like nobody knows what's in the will and everybody's sitting there to hear what happens to find out what they got. And I think that's exactly what you're saying, which is that's a scenario you never want to have because that means there's been no communication and no real relationship between the people that's based on anything about the body of wealth as a whole. It's all about, what's my part? And I'm going to lie and cheat and steal to get that part no matter what.

And so it kind of brings out the worst in people, let's say. So it sounds like what you're saying is that you need to, know, ideally that shouldn't happen. Well, how do we prove it? You know, what can you do at this level to avoid that? Yeah. You know, there's no guarantees, but you can raise the likelihood that

Roland Wiederaenders (37:40.29)
beneficiaries of estate plans experience greater well-being than they otherwise would have. Okay, that's as close as you're gonna get to it. And it's a worthy project. And this is what's so challenging, I think, for professionals to get their arms around. We are trained in a world where

you have a real cause and effect. If you do this, then that's the tax outcome. You will save $1.5 million if you do this. So you hear the numbers. I can't promise you that creating as part of this planning, emphasizing and seeking to create a system of communication along with

the estate planning will guarantee that your grandchild will not become a drug addict. Right. But I can I can raise the likelihood that by the third generation, if that did happen, he is surrounded by people who are put together psychologically and spiritually in a way that will will

make his life more likely to come back to where it ought to be than it would be if all we had was money to sell out at treatment programs. Right. You know, I love this. This is really getting at the heart of why I think a lot of people are called to the profession, vocation, even of being an attorney. you know, all vocations are noble. And I think people have a sense of wanting to help. But the best

thing that we can do as attorneys in this instance is encourage our clients to mental health. And part of that mental health is the ability to communicate and be present with our family members. And those are the, it's the hardest people for us to communicate and be friends with, honestly, because it's that old adage, right? Familiarity breeds contempt. And how dare these children not be appreciative of all the efforts that I went through.

Roland Wiederaenders (40:07.982)
through and I'm just, I'm having to learn this for sure is, is I, I'm 53 and I've got four kids, sir. You've got two kids and David, you have children. And, I think that, that understanding that dynamic, I'm learning more about it now. And that's how you and I met actually, David is I'll just confess here. David's David's dear wife, Janice is my counselor and therapist, and she's helping me to become a more conscious person.

with the goal of improving relationships with my children, because they're strained right now. you know, I want that to change. And I know that, you know, maybe I never have this great financial wealth, but I know that the more that I can grow and become a better person and better able to communicate with them, the more likely it is that they'll have children and their children will have children.

one way or another will be successful. It may not be financially successful, but they'll have this spiritual basis that once the financial wealth comes, then that can only be an enhancer. So, man, I'm really inspired again, more and more, every time we talk, David, that the better attorney I can be, well, I just need to become a better person. So my best business development practice is my...

Daily meditation practice. David, I had a question because as you were talking about good fostering, good communication and healthy, a healthy family is it sounds like the kind of maybe one could say a healthy family will do healthy things with their money for the future. And then hopefully that health will just sort of pass through generations as well, like healthy communication, mental health, focusing on.

on values that you want, that you're proud as the next generation to hold from your grandparents, for example. But then part of me also thought, family, I don't know how much is technically this is the way things would be structured, but you often have these family businesses, you have family companies, you have family offices. And part of that can just be using basic corporate structures to manage family wealth and family companies and family interests in the same way that just businesses do anyway.

Roland Wiederaenders (42:31.566)
And of course, an element of a corporate entity is corporate governance. So it just struck me that it's almost like you need to have sort of a family governance. Like, you know, corporate governance, there are enforceable parts of corporate governance and they're parts that are principles based that one should aspire to kind of even regulators put it that way. Like this is what you're supposed to do. But are there any teeth in it? Maybe, maybe not. And I don't think just in the US, this is the world over. So then it kind of strikes me that you could almost have like a

a family charter, like a charter of principles or something like that, that you, you know, encourage the future generations to aspire to, or least you set out like, this is my intention and this is the good things that I wish for the future. And those kinds of things can have an influence on future generations, I would assume, especially if they're actually come from a good place and not from a control place, more from a like, this is what I aspire to do, this is what I hope for the world, this kind of a thing. And it seems

me that, you know, I don't know if that's mine. That's mine. Sorry. That's okay. No worries. So it just seems to me that, I didn't receive that kind of a statement from my grandparents, but my grandfather and his two brothers owned this piece of property in North Carolina.

that they inherited from and on that was like this. It's this made it's this piece of property that we all will go to in the summer. So it's very emotive. It's not worth money much. It's a historical landmark. It's actually just cost money. But we have a family trust for it because a different generation, different branches of the family commenced to inherit and they're more and more. And so now we're in the fourth generation actually of owning it or fifth maybe. And the cool thing about it is that it

We all have had this because we know branches of our family that we would never know otherwise because we are almost forced to communicate over this property. And it's, you know, captured in a land trust. It's a North Carolina land trust. And and it's not hard communication, but literally we wouldn't have known those people. And I mean, my mother's first cousins, so they're all friends. But, you know, their kids now we all know each other and our kids all are starting to know each other. So.

Roland Wiederaenders (44:49.014)
It's very interesting how even something as small as one piece of, you know, one basically house in the mountains that yeah, now it's a fancy area because of development. But in the early days, it was literally a mile up in the woods that you had to hike to to get to. And this has caused like this one person set in motion four generations ago, a relationship between our family that we probably, you know, my cousins all live on the East Coast. They grew up in New York, et cetera. know, Texans and New Yorkers, you know, were not always

naturally inclined to spend time together and that kind of thing. But here we have these really broad relationships with each other because of this one house in North Carolina. And I think that's a little bit what you're talking about. And the principle that led to that is because we spent time with our grandfathers. All of us have the same grand... have grandfathers who are brothers and they share a common love of family and we all kind of respect them all so much that we want to... we make an effort, you know?

Well, sorry, you you I don't know what else to say. I mean, you're giving the talk now. No, you're the expert. Well, one of the things experts in this say in this qualitative domain say is that we don't really know anything. Our job is to uncover what you already know. And I think, you know, there's nothing for me to.

teach or to do other than acknowledge your observation with respect to your family and this quote North Carolina Land Trust close quote. Some lawyer created. In this case without a lot of attention or intention that the outcome that you're describing occurred.

Yeah, and you're looking back and saying, wow, this is really wonderful. And the governance aspect of financial wealth within families is huge and occupies a lot of the attention in the qualitative domain. So you're right on there. And I can just say that that trust at the same time might hold

Roland Wiederaenders (47:12.192)
you know, 100 or 200 Bitcoin instead of a house in North Carolina. And yet the challenges you would be facing with if it were the Bitcoin alternative would probably require some serious intentional effort to get the result that your family

has come to quite naturally, almost because there was no financial wealth here. Well, and because it's an actual place that everybody wants to go spend time. OK, I mean, we've got lots of... yeah, it's... Yeah, no, it's a... course, and it's... So, the opportunity here is that there are people who understand the dynamics you've described. And...

can facilitate the operation of family systems so that the outcome you're describing can occur even in circumstances where financial wealth tends to be much greater. so, one of the things

you can do earlier asking, you what can we do to bring this forward is one of the things I try to do is within the systems is make a place for this outside person guide to have a function to bring together.

people to enhance communication, to supercharge it so that we're not just relying upon the skills of the people who are here, but we have people outside of the system who are brought in for this specific purpose. That's really interesting and that makes sense. Well, it does and it costs money. and so you have to have

Roland Wiederaenders (49:34.926)
an agreement that it makes sense and is important, you know, sort of family wide. So this can become part of our family's ethic and not something that's imposed upon us, et cetera. But one of the things I just say technically we do is allow the systems that are being created, the trusts, the partnerships.

to be overseen by governance systems that take into account the values you're describing and that utilize as appropriate experts who are as good at creating the app you described with your land trust as

as we are with creating the structures that house them. And so going forward, sort of the technical aspect or the quantitative aspect needs can be coordinated in a way that enables the family to have access to kind of

professional assistance that can make more likely than not the outcomes you're describing. That's really, think, again, so important. We had briefly talked about it to to kind of conceive of wealth in the context of your psychology. So wealth and psychology and needing the support of people who are good in communication, whether that's counselors or otherwise, or people who are

mean, wealth managers are going to have a different kind of an approach. You know, it's more quantitative, I guess. But it kind of I find it very interesting. The psychology. I mean, there's a famous there's a book out right now called The Psychology of Money that I think a lot of people are reading and I read it. It was very it's very interesting. And I thought spot on on a lot of issues. But the psychology that goes into all of this and what people believe about their wealth and whether they deserve it and where it came from and why they got it, it's all such a big part of the picture. And it seems like

Roland Wiederaenders (52:03.446)
You know, the longer you do any profession, you probably start to understand more and more about the psychology behind what motivates anyone that you're dealing with in your profession, whatever it is. But you're in this unique position where it's like, you know, not just the psychology of your client that you're dealing with, you're the psychology of all the people in their circle that they're they're impacting. It's interesting. Well, the I don't know, the notion of wealth.

that I take from Jay Hughes work, he says, tells us that the word or the Anglo-Saxon word for wealth means well-being. That's a word I've used several times in this interview and that it became and I would use the term corrupted to mean money, enlightenment.

Okay, as we, know, humanity came to think we could figure all of this out with our great big beautiful brains. And so today, if I say wealth, I'm talking about money. And that's why in this conversation, I put the word financial in front of wealth as we have this conversation. If I'm talking about money, I try to say financial wealth.

Okay, and that goes back to just tie into another thing that you just said Sarah that Jay gives us What he calls a five capitals model. Hmm There is financial capital certainly but in addition we have human capital intellectual capital social capital and spiritual capital

And unless we can transfer these four qualitative aspects, human, intellectual, social and spiritual, along with this financial wealth, OK, we're probably in the shirt sleeves to shirt sleeves. Right, right. OK, that the the cure remedy, if there is one, is that financial wealth takes with it.

Roland Wiederaenders (54:29.902)
These and you were using the word psychological aspects, I, you know, just know you're yours are more accurate. They're more detailed. Do this. If we can package it so that this is going together. Okay. Then the likelihood that we're looking at, you know, a multi-generational transfer that is successful.

over multiple generations goes way up. so ultimately to think of the qualitative aspect of estate planning, is to now that we've handled the financial aspect, let's combine the qualitative, the four qualitative capitals with this. Okay. And if we can make a package, we, we,

we probably have made a much greater inroad into overcoming the shirt sleeves to shirt sleeves dynamic that you mentioned at the beginning. I love that idea, know, the qualitative capital and I can have wealth even if I'm not financially wealthy. Yes, absolutely. You know, and so

the more I can develop that, then when the financial wealth comes, then it does increase the likelihood that my children can enjoy it and their children can. getting past that idea of scarcity, that even though maybe I don't have a lot of money, I can still develop wealth and that inspires me.

And I think too, that goes both ways, right? Because I actually also think in our society today, there are a lot of imagery, there's a lot of pressure about if you're wealthy, that can have bad implications. It means bad things, you know? And, you know, it's subtle because obviously the overall message is that, to be wealthy means you're successful, means you're good, right? But I think actually when you break it down a little more, there's also another side of it, which is this aspect of,

Roland Wiederaenders (56:48.578)
Can you be spiritually wealthy? Can you be emotionally wealthy and also be financially wealthy? Because maybe being financially wealthy is something that's selfish and it's kind of contrary to those others. And maybe you can actually be wealthy in all the ways and it's okay. And there are different things that you do to develop and maintain and pass on those different kinds of wealth that you have.

And ultimately, it sounds like a lot more work to do five wealth building journeys than one, right? But it's also you reap five times the benefit, I would assume, because balance in life is also important. So I do feel sometimes when when talking about wealth, it's so interesting because there's also a pretty heavy religious element to it. And when you get into spending times around people from other religions that don't have some of the beliefs that

Christianity had historically about wealth, then you start to realize, you know, those people and their wealth building, like it's spiritual building and wealth building are really easy for that person and their religion supports it. And you're like, well, why is it that it can be kind of conflicted for people that have maybe more of a Christian background? And you look at history and it is exactly that because that's exactly what people were being taught that there's,

it's dignified, it's good to be poor, basically, you know, the poor hold the, you know, just setting up this conflict of like, if, you you can't, how can you be a good spiritual person and an empathetic person, all these different things and also have a lot of wealth? Well, why can't you? Why is that? And so I find that really interesting because living in the Middle East, there's a lot of superficial wealth, obviously. But some of it is underpinned by people that are from religions that aren't necessarily Christianity.

They don't have a block. They don't have this constriction about wealth building being separate from their spiritual, emotional, social lives. Sarah, is just brings me to one of the observations that I just keep coming back to, you know, and this is not about any church, but you go back in history and what how did you get to be a priest or a monk?

Roland Wiederaenders (59:09.218)
there's two things you had to give up. Yeah. Stacks and money. Exactly. And to me, that sort of says that, you know, those are the two things that we really can't do much about here, So don't do it. OK. And until we get able to manage these very basic aspects of our lives.

And it may be that your colleagues in the Middle East who don't have this historical antipathy toward money and spirituality occupying the same space at the same time. Right, right. We may have something to learn there. Yeah. As we can bring money, financial wealth.

into the domain of our spiritual awareness and conversations and practices, I think the situation that you were longing for will come to pass. There's no reason, in my opinion, that financial wealth needs to detract

from the other qualitative aspects of wealth. It's tricky. I didn't say it was easy. And the easiest way is just don't do it. Unfortunately, that way doesn't work. And we have to learn to do this and opportunity to...

go through this in an estate planning process is one of the real great opportunities I think people have and to be able to do that in a context where if you're interested in it, this qualitative aspect is also considered is really, I think, a blessing.

Roland Wiederaenders (01:01:36.846)
And I just say that this is more often than not, in my experience, revisited over time. We have long-term relationships with clients and with families. And a situation may not have been the first time we met them or for the first assignment may not have been possible. But the relationship that you are engendering with that

with my family may open that possibility four or five years from now, or 10 years from now, or 20 years from now. And I can tell you there are even longer horizons than that, guys. Amazing. I'll leave it there for time being. So you're growing, your clients are growing.

they are noticing what's going on around them as you have. We're blessed to some extent by having sort of a cram course. We see it all happen, you know, and so we may be a little more rapidly along the path than the people that we represent. But again, not everyone takes it in. The fact that it's there to be seen doesn't mean that we see. And so.

You know what, David, I wish we were colleagues at the same law firm so I could come be your student. Your time. Well, we've been going for about an hour now. It's probably time to to wrap things up. just to make sure. Was there anything else, David, that you wanted to talk about that we haven't covered? I'm just delighted to get to share this with two people who

are on the same page in a different domain of dealing with financial wealth and with people. And I'm just delighted to have this connection and to meet Sarah. Really, we're meeting on screen. That's true. finding this overlap and to have your friendship over the last few years has been...

Roland Wiederaenders (01:04:01.73)
really vital to me and I'm very grateful for that. Likewise, David. David, so, you know, I think it's remiss if you try and help your clients with wealth building and don't have in your back pocket some understanding or principles about what to say if they ask you about the next steps, you know. So now I have some new terminology. We have a goal, like a guide, the key takeaways of this qualitative

Wealth management which is communication across the family is important and getting professional help with that while you can is important. It's a worthwhile expenditure of time and money is I might take away from what you said and then Actually, if you want to know more about this, there's a there is a framework for it There are five principles of wealth building financial wealth being one of them spiritual wealth being another one and then the other three and so this is an area and maybe we even

We'll make a note in our show notes below about this, David, because I personally think people often have these ideas but don't have the words for them. And you've just given us five beautiful words that you say you got from your mentor. indeed, you you express them to us that helps focus the mind and it describes exactly what, you know, the complexities of being human in terms of building whatever you're building, the different kinds of wealth and the abundance that you might want to have.

I think that would resonate with a lot of people, regardless of a lot of superficial differences we may have with others. So thank you for that. Thank you. Yeah. Okay. Well, that seems to be a natural place to stop at the end of this episode. We wanted to inform you about David Claflin and his practice area, particularly as it pertains to, this, this somewhat niche area.

of qualitative estate planning, but as we've learned, you know, it goes hand in hand with the quantitative and can't have one without the other really to be successful. David, before we sign off, tell us about how our audience can get in touch with you. well, I'm David at davidclaflin.com. That's easy and I'll answer an email.

Roland Wiederaenders (01:06:16.47)
Okay, well, we'll make sure that we include that in the show notes. And again, just thank you so much for being with us. pleasure. Thank you. Thank you, David. And thanks to everyone for watching today. If you liked this episode and enjoyed it, please like and subscribe and follow our channel. And remember everyone, take aim with your alternative investing strategies. Thanks and see you next time.